[mondi]

FYI - from a Media release......

HyChill (like any other Australian business) under Australian law becomes automatically
legally responsible if it is found that the product is not suitably safe when used according
to HyChill’s instructions, and the penalties are severe if it turns out that the product is
not suitably safe.

HyChill explicitly states in it’s product literature that “Minus 30” is suitable for use in
automotive air conditioning systems, including as a drop-in-replacement for HFC-134a
and R-12 in most vehicles. Therefore, under Australian law HyChill becomes legally
responsible that Minus 30 is indeed safe for this purpose, and faces severe legal and
financial penalties if it is not.
Neither HyChill nor any other hydrocarbon refrigerant supplier (to our knowledge) has
ever been prosecuted for supplying a product that was not fit for the purpose(s)
approved by the refrigerant manufacturer.
Of the very small number of mobile air-conditioning safety incidents over the last 20
years where hydrocarbon refrigerants have been involved, all have been
servicing/workshop related and were the direct result of serious and basic design flaws
and/or clear failures to abide by basic common sense and straightforward safety
procedures.

We are not aware of any credible evidence whatsoever (since hydrocarbons were first
applied commercially as a drop-in replacement for HFC-134a and CFC-12 in mobile AC
around 20 years ago) that there is any trend of safety problems due to any kind of
fundamental unsuitability of hydrocarbons in mobile AC whatsoever, either on-road or in
workshops.
The only reason concerns about hydrocarbon suitability in mobile air conditioning persists
today is that misinformation, misconceptions and flawed analysis that was widely
publicised by competing interests in the early 1990’s was spread widely enough to be
mistaken as fact.

[Aircon]

Good so we agree the agenda.

But what about the risks?
Don't you find it odd that the safe and legal gas requires training, specialist equipment and licencing to install, but the proven risky gas can be bought and installed by anyone?

It's also odd, that you, as an air conditioning industry professional, support the hychill (in place of R12), and I, as an automotive service that doesn't have an aircon licence, support the use of 134a in formerly R12 cars. I use a neighbouring specialist to do my gas, I just do all the preparation and repairs.

Now I see the problem. You think I give a shit. I don't. I like it. It works better. I've done a risk assessment (in my mind) and I'm happy using it. .... otherwise I wouldn't.

The a/c didn't work well when the car was new..... and I am not happy to accept making it significantly worse by using 134a for a very small risk. I'd like to see the statistics! I believe the risk is so close to zero that it doesn't matter.

Now if I had a car with brilliant a/c I wouldn't bother changing to hychill, but then it would probably be a 134a system anyway.

[Aircon]

Good find, Mondi. I suspect that's the truth. People who write these articles often have an agenda.

[anotherforumuser]

Good find, Mondi. I suspect that's the truth. People who write these articles often have an agenda.

The report I posted was from the WA Government, no agenda I would guess. Mondi's find is from Hychill so they certainly would have an agenda but I dont think that there is a huge amount of explosions/fires happening out there from it. Hychill is more flammable and explosive but its only explosive if its not sealed so the blame will always be on the fittings, not the gas. 

If you surf, say one in a million times someone surfs they will get attacked by a shark. You use this gas and one in a million times you will get a fire. Not needing a license to buy it will always increase that risk.

Like you say, you make sure your fitment is good and youre happy with the odds. The only thing that they really do wrong in my eyes is that apparently the gas doesnt smell. Realistically I cant work out why they arent forced to add something to give it a smell so you have a clue if there is a leak. That may have changed depending how old the information I read was.

 As such FF's desire not to use it on clients cars is justified, he doesnt need to have a gas that increases the chance of fire in his clients cars, especially if they cant smell if there is a leak. Youre quite justified to have it in your car as you feel it works better and feel happy with the safety.

Fair decisions on both sides.

[Aircon]

The report I posted was from the WA Government, no agenda I would guess.

I wasn't talking about the article you posted...the panel beater one.

If you surf, say one in a million times someone surfs they will get attacked by a shark. You use this gas and one in a million times you will get a fire. Not needing a license to buy it will always increase that risk.

Like I said, I ride a motor bike almost every day. I'm too stupid to recognise risk.

 As such FF's desire not to use it on clients cars is justified, he doesnt need to have a gas that increases the chance of fire in his clients cars, especially if they cant smell if there is a leak. Youre quite justified to have it in your car as you feel it works better and feel happy with the safety.

I almost agree....but personally, I'd give them a choice and let them know what the options are....even if he doesn't want to do it himself.

I like the idea about it having a smell....that's excellent thinking.

[Ferrari Fissatore]

Duty of disclosure to all drivers and passengers, but present and future....

[Aircon]

Duty of disclosure to all drivers and passengers, but present and future....

Yeah....I like how all drivers of cars running on LPG have a big sign on the dashboard saying "Passengers, please note, this car runs on LPG"

oh...wait.....

[mondi]

The report I posted was from the WA Government, no agenda I would guess. Mondi's find is from Hychill so they certainly would have an agenda but I dont think that there is a huge amount of explosions/fires happening out there from it. Hychill is more flammable and explosive but its only explosive if its not sealed so the blame will always be on the fittings, not the gas. 

Yes, that piece is from the Hychill Media release. It's not illegal to handle Hychill due to it being a HC. Talking to a Fridgy mate with 40 years experience, the only reason they are so strict on the handling of refrigerant is the environmental risks. His opinion is, if it didn’t hurt the environment, they wouldn’t even have a code of conduct on the matter, it would be just another standard service/repair item like brakes.

Also no one is denying that Hychill is flammable. It’s the risk involved that has it be assessed. I would still like to do some experiments(just for an excuse to blow shit up) to see what the worst outcome could be. Have to find out what chemical structure Hychill shares. If it’s close to Butane then the Equivalence Ratio = 1.29, Fuel % by volume is 4.0, Critical energy is 0.971 MJ/m2. The Average AC system holds about 300g of Gas. The 308 most likely holds a little more with the extra lines that need to run from front to back. Just need some measurements of the cabin to work out the volumes. Then there is the factors of slow leaks and if the system lost all of its gas in one go........

There may not be enough gas in the system to make it look like an accident though if we blow PP up!!! 

[Aircon]

The whole thing's a storm in a tea cup...really.

Use it...don't use it...who cares? I prefer my a/c to work as well as it can at pressures it was designed for...I'm sure I've said that already. Surely there's nothing more to discuss, is there? It's up to the individual owners to decide.  I like options! It's democratic!

I'd be pissed off if I found out I was putting up with below average air conditioning which could be improved because my mechanic decided he doesn't like hychill and didn't bother mentioning the option, with the associated risks, of course.

But that's just me...and people have been known to say I march to the beat of a different drum.

[Aircon]

Talking to a Fridgy mate with 40 years experience, the only reason they are so strict on the handling of refrigerant is the environmental risks. His opinion is, if it didn’t hurt the environment, they wouldn’t even have a code of conduct on the matter, it would be just another standard service/repair item like brakes.

^^^^^THIS