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Offline vegas

  • It puts the lotion on its skinor it gets the hose

  • Joined: Nov 2009

  • Drives: Ferrari
  • Location: Austraila

Ferrarifixer, I find this all very interesting, primarily as clutch replacement is the most signficant cost to 360/430 owners. Are there any threads on this or are you or anybody else able to write out some FACTS, so that we can all avoid higher than neccessary clutch wear? I'm sure eewink is attempting to help and I've heard exactly what he has typed and was told that was true - I think the forum would benefit from some factual information on how to minimise clutch wear. 
It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the hose again.



Offline Ferrari Fissatore

  • Soap Dodger

  • Joined: Jan 2007

  • Drives: its obsession
  • Location: under its skin
Ferrarifixer, I find this all very interesting, primarily as clutch replacement is the most signficant cost to 360/430 owners. Are there any threads on this or are you or anybody else able to write out some FACTS, so that we can all avoid higher than neccessary clutch wear? I'm sure eewink is attempting to help and I've heard exactly what he has typed and was told that was true - I think the forum would benefit from some factual information on how to minimise clutch wear. 

Ok, the dealers get it all wrong, unfortunately. I'm sure they're well intentioned, but they're just plain wrong a lot of the time.

Very few of the dealers have race experience. In racing we learn MUCH more about wear and tear than dealers do.

I've been lucky enough to sit in on F1 dealer trainign courses (as part of the race team)

ok, FACTS

1) SD2 clutch % wear value is utterly meaningless. (well about 90% meaningless anyway)
It's an electronic calcualation based on activity since last reset. it can be reset without renewing the clutch. But the dealers use it as a marketing tool to up sell work. Before electronic clutch values were avaialble, did you ever worry about clutch life??

2) Race mode is aggressive... it's like driving your car and changing gear as quick as you can... it wears selectors, synchros, and stresses hydraulics.

3) The clutch isn't the most likely thing to go wrong on a 360. It's the slave cylinder seals. (obviously related, and the fix is the same anyway BUT there's nothing you can do in driving style to help the situation).



Offline Ferrari Fissatore

  • Soap Dodger

  • Joined: Jan 2007

  • Drives: its obsession
  • Location: under its skin
Ferrarifixer, I find this all very interesting, primarily as clutch replacement is the most signficant cost to 360/430 owners.

Boy, you've got some learning to do!

A set of tyres will cost almost as much a sa clutch.

A major service with cambelts will cost more than a clutch at the dealer.

A ridiculously small bump/scratch will cost more than a clutch.

DONT WORRY ABOUT THE FRICKING CLUTCH... just drive it and enjoy it!

The single biggest cause of clutch problems is dirt.... general road dirt finds its way into the bell housing and clogs up the slave scraper seal... and if you should spin off the road/track into the dust/dirt and create a cloud around yourself, the low pressure inside the clutch area at the time will actually SUCK the dirt in and cause the rear main oil seal to leak... which is a clutch job right there!

Drive it on the road, don't spin or crash it and you'll be fine.



Offline eewink


  • Joined: Oct 2009

  • Drives: Holden
  • Location: Australia
VEGAS,

OK ferrarifixer is right. Just enjoy the freakin car hehe (certainly a dream of a lifetime to own an exotic whatever it may be). I certainly did not worry about the clutch on the weekend when I was driving in the hills .............. although it is a $5,000 replacement.

But anyway OK, I will try and get some written facts. I am also interested to know the absolute facts about the clutch since me and Vegas both have very similar cars F430 and 360 modena.

The mechanic at Prestige Formula here in SA came from Italy and worked on the factory floor in Ferrari for 8 years. He will have written spec sheets and written evidence. I'll ask him.

Whether clutch wear is quicker or not in AUTO mode is open for debate it seems but I know this for sure from the Italian Ferrari mechanic, if you launch the car i.e. put your foot down when the lights go green (or use launch control in the case of the F430) OR when you put the car into reverse up a slope (yes actually reversing up an incline) you will incur greater than normal clutch wear. Ferrarifixer can you confirm this?

BTW did you manage to get FERRARI ASSIST and see if there are water stains between the rear glass window plates?

Ee Win



Offline Ferrari Fissatore

  • Soap Dodger

  • Joined: Jan 2007

  • Drives: its obsession
  • Location: under its skin

OK ferrarifixer is right. (edit, again ;) )


The mechanic at Prestige Formula here in SA came from Italy and worked on the factory floor in Ferrari for 8 years. He will have written spec sheets and written evidence. I'll ask him.

if you launch the car i.e. put your foot down when the lights go green (or use launch control in the case of the F430) OR when you put the car into reverse up a slope (yes actually reversing up an incline) you will incur greater than normal clutch wear. Ferrarifixer can you confirm this?


Ee Win

working at the factory will teach you lots and lots about assembling new cars, but very little if anything about diagnosing and repairing wearing/aging cars.

Of course, launching the car will wear the clutch MUCH MUCH faster than normal... the clutch delivers torque... the greater the request for torque, the greater the slip WEAR.

Note... slip amount is NOT the same as slip WEAR. You can gently slip a clutch for ages without damage, or you can slip it briefly aggressivly anf knock off 20% in one moment.

Reverse gear is a high ratio... it's almost the same as 2nd gear. Reversing is a bit like driving away in 2nd gear all the time.... greater slip is required.



Offline Ferrari Fissatore

  • Soap Dodger

  • Joined: Jan 2007

  • Drives: its obsession
  • Location: under its skin
the 430 and 360 are really quite different in their clutch operation.

The entire protocol is different, and the mechanicals are different too. the 430 has a twin plate clutch, the 360 just a single.

You cannot interchange ANY 430 bits into a 360 without adding the entire system, wiring looms and ECU's included.

a 430 can be driven with ease in a manner that is kind to the clutch.

The 360 software is bug riddled, and it's almost impossible to "feel" a 360 clutch, like you can with a 430.



Offline Ferrari Fissatore

  • Soap Dodger

  • Joined: Jan 2007

  • Drives: its obsession
  • Location: under its skin
On a 360, the throttle pedal is also MASSIVELY influential on clutch operation.

For example, in most 2 pedal cars, you might stab the throttle to creep/roll forwards a bit....

In a 360, you must roll onto the throttle and keep applying it more once the car starts to move... if you stop applying throttle once the car starts moving, the clutch will pause it's engagement and will slip more than is necessary.

Typically, what ACTUALLY happens is this... the 360 lurches forwards unexpectedly violently, and through physics and surprise YOU then lurch backwards in your seat a bit... which takes OFF the throttle again which is exactly the opposite of what you WANT to happen.

The 430's are much much smoother and better managed.



Offline Ferrari Fissatore

  • Soap Dodger

  • Joined: Jan 2007

  • Drives: its obsession
  • Location: under its skin
You must set up your driving position so that you have plenty of weight on your throttle foot heel to the floor, and don't be too far away from the steering wheel.

Be braced in your seat (I always tug the lap seatbelt to pull me into the seat), then DON'T touch the throttle to move until you know you're really ready to go a certain known distance.

I once drove a 575, when it was almost new and supposedly "perfect", in a wedding procession through the city, with a guest that was trying to touch up her makeup.... impossible!   :tilt:



Offline dkabab




Offline Ferrari Fissatore

  • Soap Dodger

  • Joined: Jan 2007

  • Drives: its obsession
  • Location: under its skin
buy a manual

of course... but then you miss out on all the technology that is available in that model.

I recently drove a 430 manual, and it felt quite "dumb". The gear display is still there on the dash, but does nothing. Just a blank screen, and all the trickery witchcraft and tom foolery is diluted.



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