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Offline Ferrari Fissatore

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He paid 5m pounds for a non-matching numbers/non-original spec 250 California, all because James Coburn owned it for 5 minutes.  :tilt:

I doubt he'll get his money back when it comes time to sell.  The car also looks a quite odd in the pics. Removing the bumpers doesn't help.

NQR Roman

There's more to this story than is publicly known. I know a little of it, that I heard from the guy that feeds the horse, if not the horse itself, but not enough to comment much further... suffice to say, don't believe what you hear/read on the internet.

YES, he's a tosser though!



Offline RMV

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NQR Roman

There's more to this story than is publicly known. I know a little of it, that I heard from the guy that feeds the horse, if not the horse itself, but not enough to comment much further... suffice to say, don't believe what you hear/read on the internet.

YES, he's a tosser though!

Interesting!  IIRC, it was Massini who mentioned it being a non-matching numbers car, and I've seen pics of the car in its previous life (in fact, with James Coburn when he owned it and it was grey) but I'll defer to your inside knowledge based on the fact that I have no first-hand knowledge!



Offline Ferrari Fissatore

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Interesting!  IIRC, it was Massini who mentioned it being a non-matching numbers car, and I've seen pics of the car in its previous life (in fact, with James Coburn when he owned it and it was grey) but I'll defer to your inside knowledge based on the fact that I have no first-hand knowledge!

Who is this Massini you speak of? Mime artist?  :tilt:

Matching numbers are over rated.

Firstly, for competition cars even Factory/Classiche have stated it's meaningless, but even for road cars, all you gotta do is get the numbers to match... it's VERY easy and VERY cheap.

Engine swaps take hours, not even days. as with transmissions. (You just gotta find 'em ;) )




Offline RMV

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Who is this Massini you speak of? Mime artist?  :tilt:

Matching numbers are over rated.

Firstly, for competition cars even Factory/Classiche have stated it's meaningless, but even for road cars, all you gotta do is get the numbers to match... it's VERY easy and VERY cheap.

Engine swaps take hours, not even days. as with transmissions. (You just gotta find 'em ;) )




Matching numbers wouldn't stop me from buying one (if reflected in price), but I personally would not set a world record price on one of these cars if there was any doubt about provenance.  Just my personal view.  Also completely accept what you say about matching no. shenanigans! 

Found this re engine no which was disclosed by RM Auctions for this car: "This car has a correct Ferrari 250 GT SWB California Spyder engine although we cannot confirm it is engine # 2377GT. Ferrari Classiche have restamped a new and correct internal number for this type of engine".

Agree re the comp cars... numbers would be a nightmare to keep track of given engine swap/id swaps/non-stamping etc.  Par for the course with some of the comp cars.

Marcel?   :melting:  Oh, he's an 'artist' alright.  :p



Offline RMV

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This whole 'matching nos' thing is interesting, especially the way in which different people put different emphasis on its importance.  For eg, sat next to a guy at dinner on the carb run last week who is in the market for a Lusso (RHD only).  He passed on a Lusso which received a factory replacement engine (when the car was two years old) after the first owner blew up the original motor.  Car was cheaper than a matching numbers car due to this aspect of its history.  I can see the appeal in having a genuine, matching numbers car; it would, at the very least mean that it would be easier to sell at full market value (all else being equal).  Some people in this particular market won't have a non-matching numbers or engine-replaced car at any price.     



Offline Ferrari Fissatore

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This whole 'matching nos' thing is interesting, especially the way in which different people put different emphasis on its importance.  For eg, sat next to a guy at dinner on the carb run last week who is in the market for a Lusso (RHD only).  He passed on a Lusso which received a factory replacement engine (when the car was two years old) after the first owner blew up the original motor.  Car was cheaper than a matching numbers car due to this aspect of its history.  I can see the appeal in having a genuine, matching numbers car; it would, at the very least mean that it would be easier to sell at full market value (all else being equal).  Some people in this particular market won't have a non-matching numbers or engine-replaced car at any price.     


yes, some people get sucked in by the noisy minority...

some people also make up stories about not buying things, becasue they either changed their mind, or wouldn't meet the sell price.... not saying that is the case with your dinner companion BTW.

Back in the 50's and 60's engine technology was not that great... castings were variable in quality and often those engine failed due to poor build... who would want one like that?

Provided that the engine is correct in every way including it's identity and proven source, only those poorly informed would place such great importance on original engine number according to (not always reliable) Ferrari records.

Yes it's nice if a car has the original correct engine and it's in perfect health... but to NOT buy a car you desire for such a fact is simply insane..... or incorrect at best. There is ALWAYS another reason below the surface.



Offline Ferrari Fissatore

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Have you even verified the engine number on your cars?


What if you found the engine number was from the NEXT or PRIOR car in production line, and they somehow got swapped at installation (this happens MUCH more than you realise)

If I found out my Getz had the wrong engine number I'd be FURIOUS, mildy curious..... but would it make the value any different? :scratchchin:



Offline RMV

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Yes, I agree with you that the whole matching numbers thing can be pedantic and should not be the be all and end all.  As you say, what’s fundamentally important is that the car has the correct type of engine.  For eg, one GTO (I think Hartmut Ibing’s car) supposedly runs a 250GTE engine (or something) and the whereabouts of the original is unknown (c.f. Jon Shirley who runs a non-original engine in his very special 166MM, but has the original matching nos engine stored so that it can be reunited with his car at any time).  Re the Lusso, this guy is definitely the real deal, and has his heart set on a factory RHD, matching nos Lusso. But I do understand what you’re saying in general terms, as more people than not have bigger mouths than wallets. Not the case with this guy! :)

Personally, I’d have a non-matching nos car (if it came with the appropriate discount given the fact that, for better or worse, it would be considered a ‘stories’ car) if it came with the correct spec engine. That would be non-negotiable for me (though this is all hypothetical, seeing as I’ll never be in the league of buying these sorts of cars). 

In some respect, this debate is a little like the Aus-delivered versus import argument… an import car can be just as good (or even better!) than an Aus-delivered car, but some people insist on having an Aus-delivered car, and will simply NOT consider an import.  And that makes buying a non-Aussie car both a positive and a negative experience, IMO. Positive because the cost to buy at first instance is likely to be cheaper when compared to an Aussie-del equivalent.  However, the negative is that  car may be harder to shift when it comes time to sell.  Personally, I do not intend selling the cars that I buy, so I would not be perturbed by either non-matching nos (for a classic) or import (for a modern) if the car was correct spec, in excellent condition, and priced accordingly.   

If I found out that my car had its engine replaced on the production line, it would be no big deal at all for me… it’s how it left the factory, after all.  I’d be a bit peeved if I had to have an engine replaced under warranty, though (as someone I’ve met did with his 599), mainly because I’d be concerned that my car would be seen as a ‘stories’ car by potential future purchasers.  The difference in perspective is, of course, irrational, given both situations involve an engine replacement with correct type by the factory. But for some, what happens to the car in the factory counts much less (and does not make the car a ‘stories’ car) when compared to what happens after the car leaves the factory. 



Offline Pazzo Canguro

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I dont care who he is what he does or if he is a tosser or not....the 250cali spyder is my all time favourite car and would kill to have one....he is a fortunate man..
but i wouldnt paint all mine white so they match...seriously what the???



Offline mondi

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