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Offline dodger

  • Tommy Gunna

  • Joined: Dec 2009

  • Location: Melbourne
Geez maybe we should start a weird dream thread!

Is it time ?




Offline AshSimmonds

  • Geekitecht

  • Joined: Feb 2006

  • Drives: GF's shitbox :(
  • Location: Adelayed
  • Name: Humble Narrator
  • www: AshSimmonds.com
Sure.

To be honest, I'm getting tired of dreaming - finding it more and more frustrating as it's mostly just an unwelcome haze and usually really dumb waste of my night.  If I wanted that I'd just get drunk. :p

Am really interested in lucid dreaming though - have been pursuing it more over the last year or so and started to get to the point where I could stick around lucidly for about 5 minutes before being booted out - this is when it starts to get awesome.  I can only do this at around 6-8am, but it's a lifelong pursuit of mine trying to understand the psychology of dreams - and more to the point - control them.

Oh, and people trying to recite your dreams to someone else - just stop it.  It's always a complete waste of time. 

Let XKCD tell it for me:

http://xkcd.com/430/

Every Damn Morning

Image

Quote
There was something about a cup and a sword and a tree and a green hill ...




Offline dodger

  • Tommy Gunna

  • Joined: Dec 2009

  • Location: Melbourne
I'll have to think about that - you will dream and remember the dream if you eat late or just before bed.

You'll love this -

Last night I dreamed I was in Perth driving the red GS home, when I tried to use the headlight dimmer the whole windscreen changed to a GPS map, so I couldn't see where I was actually going.

Then I realised I hadn't paid for the car and was probably just on a test drive...........fade to wake up at 3:30 am

Was fairly realistic and nice to drive one again :D

Dreams reflect whats on your subconscious.



Offline Iggy_Type_R


  • Joined: Nov 2008

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Ash, we've spoken about Lucid dreaming before right? :)

Do some research into GABA and it's effect on your neurology (esp in the alpha/theta ranged - REM and post-REM sleep).

I've now dived into more of this in the last few months and happy to discuss... offline tho :)

PS. i say offline not because I am using any illicit substances - more due to the huge amounts of info that I have collected and typing it up is a PITA and because people will think I've lost it ;)

p.p.s. watch Limitless :)



Offline dodger

  • Tommy Gunna

  • Joined: Dec 2009

  • Location: Melbourne
because people will think I've lost it ;)
p.p.s. watch Limitless :)

Try us... but keep it to the KISS version.



Offline mondi

  • Resident Bogan
  • Moderator

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My dreams scare the shit out of me!!!!!   :argh:





But some are nice.    :tilt:



Offline T0M722


  • Joined: Jan 2011

  • Location: Melbourne
I literally just completed a Psychology Unit 3 test yesterday on sleep and consciousness etc. I'm no expert but I've had a lot of stuff about it drilled into my head. Still, no one knows what dreaming actually is... Theories are present but no concrete answer exists.
:)



Offline Iggy_Type_R


  • Joined: Nov 2008

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Still, no one knows what dreaming actually is... Theories are present but no concrete answer exists.

Agreed, however we do know some of the mechanics of it - like for example that it's present during REM (alpha brainwave state, but lower spectrum I think...)

As some research suggests, dreaming is a "more artificial" construct of our minds. In our waking state, we are still constructing all the inputs we receive from the input senses to form a point of view unique to the individual. This goes for colour, texture, smell, sound, etc. In a dreaming state, these physical inputs do not exist, but that does not mean that our brain cannot synthesise it.

If you have ever studied NLP (let’s not get into a deep discussion of it’s merits or lack of) you’ll be well aware that we can easily change our construct even with utterly unchanged inputs. One of my favourite studies into this is the original study of phobias by Dr Bandler – which basically says that a person was able to more or less instantly remove their own phobia when they “saw themselves” from a 3rd point of view. Now, without a camera and a VR set of glasses (I have two different sets ;) ) that is a pretty “hard” task to do, but I am sure if you close your eyes right now, you will easily do it.

So back to dreams … most of our day to day decision making is done in the Beta brainwave state (normal waking state) … which could explain why it’s so hard to “decide” what you dream about when you’re asleep. In deep meditation (with really not that much practice) you can arrive at a “sleeping state” where your body is asleep for all intents and purposes, but your mind is wide awake. But you literally cannot even more a finger… funky feeling let me tell you! ;)

I have used GABA in the past (before sleep) and experienced insanely realistic and vivid dreams, which I could recall for days after. That is very rare for dreams (at least for me). As always, Wikipedia is a good source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GABA

Although I am not a biochemist, I’d say that GABA helps with the specific receptors to do with the dreaming state… may be?

My specific interest with dreaming is our perception of time in dreams. Dreams that seem to go on for hours only last seconds in the “real world.”  The reality though is that the dream itself did not last for hours, simply our memory of it has a certain chronological construct, which our rational mind translates to x hours or whatever. To me this implies that during the dreaming state we “bypass” the short-term and working memory – basically waking up with the memory of events in our long term memory. Now for short term memory formation, we know that Acetylcholine (Ach for short) is involved (research suggests Neural adaptation suppression). However, I am not sure if an equivalent chemical is suggested in long term memory formation.

So the REALLY INTERESTING question is if we can “form long term memory” without the standard learning model of repetition via working and short-term memory, could we learn to, say, play piano, while dreaming simply by forming the long term memory of it… kinda cool if you ask me! :)



Offline T0M722


  • Joined: Jan 2011

  • Location: Melbourne
If i recall correctly, dreaming does actually last more than a few seconds in real life. On average a person will experience about 4-5 cycles of REM per night. You may not remember the dream that you had in REM but you do dream every night. Time orientation occurs in an altered state of consciousness.
e.g.  A person will have a 20 minute nap during the day and will think that the sleep went on for hours.

This mightn't be a very good representation but notice how as the night goes on, the REM periods become longer and also are closer together.

Image

So, maybe a REM period would be 20 minutes long... Also, REM periods can last for much longer. Close to waking up, REM periods may well last for around an hour.

I want to see a person with their eyes open during REM periods of sleep. That would be very cool.
:)



Offline AshSimmonds

  • Geekitecht

  • Joined: Feb 2006

  • Drives: GF's shitbox :(
  • Location: Adelayed
  • Name: Humble Narrator
  • www: AshSimmonds.com
One of my favourite studies into this is the original study of phobias by Dr Bandler – which basically says that a person was able to more or less instantly remove their own phobia when they “saw themselves” from a 3rd point of view.

Perspective therapy helps you get through a lot - basically realising how meaningless you really are in the scheme of things. :cool:

In deep meditation (with really not that much practice) you can arrive at a “sleeping state” where your body is asleep for all intents and purposes, but your mind is wide awake. But you literally cannot even more a finger… funky feeling let me tell you! ;)

This is my 6-8am time where I can get a few minutes here and there, it's really tough to hold onto, a delicate balance of awareness and unconsciousness.  I'm getting better at it, you can start to feel yourself slipping back into autopilot, when that happens force yourself to look at your watch or discern something of a specific colour, simple things you can embed as commands which will remind you to stay un-asleep. 

The other end of it is actually properly waking up, I find if I can keep my eyes closed there's half a chance I'll slip back under, but at that stage you can be really confused as you'll feel "awake" but like you're drunk.  This is the precipice of the bit you mentioned where the body is asleep - it's here that the body is now awake and you can control it - but you want to get back to being where you're unable to move your body.

My specific interest with dreaming is our perception of time in dreams. Dreams that seem to go on for hours only last seconds in the “real world.” 

...

So the REALLY INTERESTING question is if we can “form long term memory” without the standard learning model of repetition via working and short-term memory, could we learn to, say, play piano, while dreaming simply by forming the long term memory of it… kinda cool if you ask me! :)

Yep - this shit fascinates me - I've confirmed plenty of times that hours have "passed" between snooze button presses.  Take that a step further, if you have the ability to properly control that time - and INTRODUCE new elements - the capacity for accelerated learning on a logarithmic scale is awesome...

"I know kung-fu" :cool:





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