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Offline tdc911


  • Joined: Apr 2006

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So what is your point? If I go to an event and take photos, I should offer them for free to the entrants?
My point is that it is not unreasonable for entrants to expect to get photos for free. I am trying to get you to justify why I, from an entrant's perspective, should pay you for photos of me and my car, especially if I have not specifically asked you to be at the event and have no reference of you work.

I took umbrage to your earlier post "the person requesting your services...
I get a lot of people from motorsport events wanting photos of themselves, but don't want to pay a cent".

You are not providing a service to that driver if you went to the event on your own accord and should not expect them to cover the costs of your "$15k in equipment, time taken off work, transport costs", you are providing them with a product and ultimately it should be them who decides whether your end product necessitates any monetary value.

I believe it is incredibly short sighted to say to an entrant that if he/she wants a photo then they will have to pay for it. I'm not saying give them all your photos of their vehicle or give them the photos in full resolution but I believe they deserve something. You can always use the free/sample/preview image/s to sell them your premium product or photography services.

Whether you like it or not, there will always be amateurs taking photos and the drivers will be able to get photos off them for free. Therefore, it is up to the quality of your photos to justify any premium over what they can readily find. If your skills and equipment cannot differentiate you from the 'amateurs' then you should not be making any money.

but my time and tallent is worth something and I can happily justify charging $x for my work.
I personally think that this is a bullshit mentality, especially for somebody relatively new to the industry. Time and talent mean absolutely nothing unless you put the results on the board.  You can happily justify charging $x for your work but the client has to be able to justify paying $x for your work.

I dont pretend to be a pro
If you say so.

The more 'photographers' roll over and give away their photos for free, the harder it is for a pro to make money. I know several pro's who have been undercut by amatures wanting just photo credit in return for their photos in a magazine, purely because they were free and the pro wasn't. 
No doubt, but it doesn't matter whether you are undercutting professional photographers by a little or by a lot, you are still making it harder for them to make money.



Offline OzCarSightings

  • Will eat your baby
  • Photographer

  • Joined: May 2006

  • Drives: GenF HSV/Golf R32/motorbike
  • Location: Perth
  • www: JanGlovac.com
 :doh:

If somebody doesn't think the photos are worth paying for, they won't. If they think they are brilliant then they will happily pay. I don't see how either party should be upset.

I have my photos on my site in low-res which anyone and everyone can view/download/save, if somebody sees a photo of their car on track and they want it in high-res then they can pay for it.

Seems quite simple to me.

Admittedly I don't do much track photography these days, so my photoshoots are probably a different scenario.



Offline tdc911


  • Joined: Apr 2006

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If somebody doesn't think the photos are worth paying for, they won't. If they think they are brilliant then they will happily pay. I don't see how either party should be upset.

Seems quite simple to me.

Exactly.



Offline jim501

  • Idiot Seeking Village

  • Joined: Apr 2006

  • Location: Brisbane
  • Name: Cam
tdc I think you've taken Dkebab the wrong way, at no point do I think he is forcing drivers to buy his photos, he takes them for himself. If anyone else wants them in hi-res they can buy them, but I don't think he's stopping anyone from taking them from his website the same as OZcar (still feel like calling you dingo). Any photograph taking photos in public (paparazzi, sporting) are only reaping financial benefit if someone thinks they need them they don't make people buy them or get paid for their time.



Offline CortinaD


  • Joined: Jan 2008

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My point is that it is not unreasonable for entrants to expect to get photos for free. I am trying to get you to justify why I, from an entrant's perspective, should pay you for photos of me and my car, especially if I have not specifically asked you to be at the event and have no reference of you work.

Yes it is unreasonable. You as an entrant cannot take pictures of you driving your car so someone else has to and unless they are your friend or knee-grow that you have taking pics for you, then they should have to right to charge if you want the picture as they are providing a service, regardless if they are a pro or not.

You are not providing a service to that driver if you went to the event on your own accord and should not expect them to cover the costs of your "$15k in equipment, time taken off work, transport costs", you are providing them with a product and ultimately it should be them who decides whether your end product necessitates any monetary value.

If the driver wants a photo he took, how is this not a service. You want something that someone else has done. If they want the photo they will pay the price set, if they don't pay the price, they don't get the photo.

Are you the guy who set up a restaurant that has no charge on meals and that the patron decides what he or she should pay ?? Hows that working for you?

No doubt, but it doesn't matter whether you are undercutting professional photographers by a little or by a lot, you are still making it harder for them to make money.

Happens in most professions.



Offline PA

  • One man comedy gala

  • Joined: Jan 2008

  • Location: www.club-carbon.com



Offline tdc911


  • Joined: Apr 2006

  • Location:
  • Drives:
Yes it is unreasonable.
Read what I typed and notice the word 'EXPECT'. As Mhh explained, the fact of the matter is the entrant can readily get photos of his car for free from all over the internet.

You as an entrant cannot take pictures of you driving your car so someone else has to and unless they are your friend or knee-grow that you have taking pics for you, then they should have to right to charge if you want the picture as they are providing a service, regardless if they are a pro or not.
When a tourist hands you a camera, do you charge them for taking a photo of them with their family? I suppose you like the American mentality where you are expected to tip everyone for all services performed, whether they were performed well or not.

If the driver wants a photo he took, how is this not a service.
You explained this yourself. Took is past tense, the photo already exists, the photo is tangible and therefore a product.
 
If they want the photo they will pay the price set, if they don't pay the price, they don't get the photo.
If they do not get the photo then what service has been provided?

Are you the guy who set up a restaurant that has no charge on meals and that the patron decides what he or she should pay ?? Hows that working for you?
I did not say that the customer should decide what he or she pays, rather if he or she pays.






Offline looney


  • Joined: Mar 2007

  • Drives: VW Beetle
I used to do alot of shoots for free

If i recall my little yellow toaster from norfolk was one of your first, and i really appreciated your effort :D



Offline scud

  • 300kph+ club
  • Rocket man

  • Joined: Mar 2006

  • Location:
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dkabab, anything positive from the lambo mag?

or just more traffic?

mark said he will send you a copy.



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